Mark
C Lee interviews Nick Pope - one of the world’s leading experts and
researchers on UFOs.
Introduction
I
first came across the name Nick Pope when doing research for my next book –
UFOs and Rock. He seemed to be the number one guy to speak to with regards to
UK UFOs especially as he had worked for a number of years at the Ministry Of
Defence where he was in charge of the so called British X Files, investigating
hundreds of UFO sightings that date back to the 1950s. In fact Nick gave me
hope that there may be more to the UFO movement than dodgy acid trips and
trailer trash flashbacks. In essence he has given credibility and gravitas to a
much maligned field, and well if Nick Pope, ex MOD and intelligent observer,
thinks that there’s more to it than hoaxes, disinformation and the planet Venus
then maybe “they” are actually out there….somewhere!
Questions;
Good afternoon Nick and thank you for
agreeing to this interview.
Can you give our readers a little
background to who you are and what you do?
I worked for the MoD
for 21 years and while I had several different jobs at various levels in the
course of my career, I’m best-known for having run MoD’s UFO project –
something I did from 1991 to 1994. I left MoD in 2006 and I now work as a
broadcaster and journalist, specializing in stories on the unexplained,
conspiracy theories, sci-fi and fringe science.
What’s the most convincing case for a UFO
being a non man made physical aircraft of some sort?
Probably a wave of
sightings we had over the UK for a period of around six hours on March 30 and
31, 1993. It’s difficult to be sure of the total number of witnesses, because
while dozens of people made reports to MoD, some contacted the police, UFO
groups and the media, while other witnesses stayed silent. Of the reports I
received and investigated at MoD, one of the most interesting came from a
patrol of military police at RAF Cosford, who saw the UFO fly directly over the
Air Force Base. But the most compelling came from the meteorological officer at
a second military base, RAF Shawbury. He saw a large delta-shaped UFO moving
slowly towards the base, about 200 feet above the ground, at a speed of no more
than 30 or 40 mph. He saw the UFO fire a
narrow beam of light (like a laser) at the ground and saw the light sweeping
backwards and forwards across the field beyond the perimeter fence, as if it
were looking for something. He heard an
unpleasant low frequency humming sound coming from the craft and said he could
feel as well as hear this. He estimated
the size of the craft to be midway between a C-130 transport aircraft and a
Boeing 747. Then he told me that the
light beam had retracted in an unnatural way and that the craft had suddenly
accelerated away to the horizon many times faster than a military
aircraft. Here was an experienced Air
Force officer with eight years of service, who regularly saw military aircraft
and helicopters, yet said this was unlike anything he’d seen in his life. We
launched a full investigation, of course, but the sightings remain unexplained
to this day.
The Rendlesham
Forest incident – This case seems to be still
unsolved. What is your take on what exactly happened here? Did a landing take
place as Jim Penniston suggested, or was it all just the Orford Ness lighthouse
disorientating US soldiers in the forest? (To be honest I just don’t think the lighthouse
theory works to well especially as Colonel Halt has stated that the craft shone
beams of light down).
It was certainly
reported to MoD as a landing and the investigation was handled on this basis –
e.g. my predecessors made a scientific assessment of the radiation levels
recorded at the site where the UFO had been seen on the ground. As with the
1993 sightings I mentioned, the Rendlesham Forest incident remains unexplained
to this day. It certainly wasn’t the lighthouse. Even the local forester who
first suggested this doesn’t think the lighthouse could fool people for so
long, over two separate nights. In any case, you can’t see the lighthouse from most
of the locations where the UFO was seen and in the couple of places where you
can, the angles are all wrong. None of the other skeptical theories (practical
jokes, a psyop to test the reaction of the guards, drug-induced hallucinations,
etc.) pan out either, so we’re left with a genuine mystery.
US
Press Club meeting? How significant was this and
what was the outcome?
Are the US or other governments covering up
the truth? I know you’ve gone on record stating that you believe that it’s more
of a question of governments being embarrassed about admitting that there’s
things in our airspace that we don’t know what they are, but do you think there
is a covert agenda?
I can only speak for
the position in the UK and so far as that’s concerned, I’ve seen no evidence of
a covert agenda, aside from the policy (publicly exposed many years ago in some
documents acquired after a Freedom of Information Act request) of downplaying
MoD’s interest in UFOs and downplaying the true extent of the research and
investigation that the Department used to do on the subject. There have been
several UFO-related events at The National Press Club: Steven Greer’s
Disclosure Project press conference was the first. Steve Bassett has hosted two
or three; Leslie Kean and James Fox organized one; Robert Hastings put one on.
All were important events and generated mainstream media coverage to varying
extents.
If the extra-terrestrial
theory is correct why are we being visited and for what purpose?
Well, I don’t know
that the extra-terrestrial theory is correct. While I can’t rule it out and
while there’s some intriguing evidence, there’s nothing that I’d characterize
as definitive ‘you can take that to the bank’ proof. If we are dealing with
extraterrestrials, I think most – if not all – assessments of the ‘alien
agenda’ are hopelessly anthropocentric: we’re simply copying and pasting human
thinking, so we end up with clichéd human ideas about what might happen after
first contact with extraterrestrials. We have alien invasion at one extreme and
an invitation to join some sort of ‘Galactic Federation’ at the other. About
the only prediction I’ll make is that it won’t turn out how we think it will.
What do you think of the theory that maybe
the UFOs and occupants that have been seen are really just us from the future
and that we have time travelled back in time for some purpose?
It’s a fascinating
theory and it deals nicely with one of the classic ufological pieces of
anthropocentrism, namely the question of why most UFO occupants look
essentially humanoid. The argument, I suppose, would be that the grays (and
maybe the Nordics) are what human beings evolve into. That said, I’m pretty
cautious about ideas like this and I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think
there’s any meaningful evidence to support them. It’s an intriguing theory, but
nothing more. And ideas of technologically advanced humans coming back in time
to save their dying race by harvesting genetic material from us (and maybe
trying to salvage their lost humanity) are sci-fi clichés.
I see that you’re getting into the
important new field of Exo- Politics
could you just explain to our reader what this is and why it may be of
importance in the future.
I’m not sure I’m
“getting into” exopolitics. I’ve spoken at various exopolitical conferences,
but I disagree with many of their beliefs (they present as certainties things
which simply aren’t proven) and I’ve managed to upset some of the UK
exopolitics folk by writing a newspaper article where I referred to exopolitics
as being the “militant wing” of ufology! If anything, I meant this as a
compliment, in terms of them being more bullish and crusading than most ufologists,
but some people took my comment the wrong way. If they could lose their tendency
to state speculation as if it were fact (along with their habit of trying to
tie in ufology with 9/11 conspiracy theories and other ideas about the New
World Order) I think they’d have an interesting and relevant approach: i.e. let’s
forget debating what UFOs are, and whether we’re being visited, on the basis
that you’re really not going to change anyone’s mind. Rather, let’s assume we
are being visited and ask what our response should be. Now that’s interesting.
What do you think about the possibility
that the UFOs people are seeing are man made from reverse engineered technology
taken from recovered extra terrestrial craft?
Again, I can’t rule
it out, but despite some unsubstantiated stories from alleged whistleblowers,
there’s no real evidence to back up the theory. And I’m going to go out on a
limb here: I think there’s something a little depressing about these sorts of
theories. They’re disparaging to human ingenuity and spirit. Why can’t we
accept that we might be clever enough to have designed the stealth fighter
ourselves? Why do we think we were too stupid to have built the pyramids and
that aliens must have done it for us, or helped us?
What is the most out there UFO theory that
you have come across?
Hmm, where to begin?
There are plenty of ‘out there’ cases (and ufologists!), but theories … I think
the whole Nazi flying saucer genre would be my pick; the idea that Hitler
secretly developed disc-shaped craft and fled with this and other technology to
a base in Antarctica, or wherever. All this, of course, is going to get another
boost when the movie Iron Sky comes out.
Nick, what music do you listen to?
David Bowie, Elton
John, Siouxie and the Banshees, Amy Winehouse, The Killers, Eminem, Nicki Minaj
– and a whole lot of other bands and singers.
What are your favourite books?
Classics, with an
emphasis on classic sci-fi: Nineteen Eighty-Four, Steppenwolf, The War of the
Worlds, Brave New World, The Day of the Triffids, The Time Machine. Also, Tom
Clancy’s thrillers, Stephen King’s horror books and Anne Rice’s vampire
chronicles.
What sports are you into?
At international
level, anything England are playing in: football, rugby, cricket, etc. But
first and foremost is football (or soccer, as I have to call it in America),
whether it’s an international match or a club game. I support Arsenal, but I
like to watch any good game, irrespective of who’s playing. Sadly, I haven’t
played sport myself for years. Here’s an interesting piece of personal sporting
trivia: I went to the same school as Jonny Wilkinson, so we’d have played rugby
on the same pitch, albeit not at the same time, in view of the age difference.
What about your favourite film?
If I can pick only
one, I’ll go for Contact.
Guinness, Lager, Bitter or Absinthe?
Lager.
Rolling Stones or The Beatles?
The Rolling Stones.
What are your plans for 2012?
I recently relocated
to California and I’m going to be doing a lot more TV work, which will probably
see me in a wide range of roles, varying from co-creator of some drama, through
to presenting and contributing to various documentaries. I’ll also be carrying
on with freelance journalism for various newspapers and magazines, along with promotional
work for film companies in relation to the release of new sci-fi movies. It’s
already shaping up to be a very busy year.
Will the world still be here come 31st December?
Yes. Despite the
tension over Iran’s nuclear program, predictions about a false flag alien
invasion at the Olympics and theories about the Mayan calendar, we’ll still be
here at the end of the year.
What do think about the Ancient Alien
hypothesis that this planet has been visited for 1000s of years and may have
even been genetically engineered/modified by extra terrestrials?
My wife is a physical
anthropologist and from what I understand, there’s nothing in human development
that can’t be explained by the processes of evolution. We don’t need Ancient
Aliens (though I’m fond of the eponymous TV series) to explain any of this.
Charles Darwin did it well enough all those years ago and his model still holds
true.
Where can people find out more about you?
My www.nickpope.net website has extensive material about my government work
and my more recent media work.
When are you next speaking in the US?
I’m drastically
reducing my conference appearances, due to the pressure of other business.
About the only two invitations I’ve accepted for 2012 are the Dreamland
Festival in Nashville (May 18-20) and the 2012 MUFON International Symposium in
Cincinnati (August 3-5). I may do one or two others, but that’s it for now.
Thanks again for your time.
Mark Christopher Lee